Subbuteo Advanced Rules

OK

Putting together an enthusiastic thumbs up website for all things Subbuteo / Table Football at the moment.
One aspect is going to be a newly published PDF online detailing the Original Subbuteo Advanced Rules, and an add-on detailing the FISTF changes ( and hopefully, if I can get a response, the logic and reasoning for them ).

Have just been scanning the Advanced Rules in the Subbuteo Handbook which make for an interesting read ( definitely a few brow raisers in there, not being adhered to ), but they differ from the Advanced Rules the ISF links to?
Did SSG change them at some stage in their evolution, or is the linked version on the ISF a misinterpretation possibly?
Or perhaps a mix of Advanced Rules and the OldSubbuteo Rules?

Will be grateful if anybody can shed some light.

They were updated every so often Steve..block flicking for example changed considerably over the years .. just three block flicks were permitted in I think the 1968 rules (and then only to be taken in your own half !) the rule about formations ..dare I mention it appears in all the 60's versions...also a rule about the number of defenders allowed in the shooting area....happy days

Thanks for the input, Ralph.

Think I'm gonna have to go with what everybody is pretty much playing, because I see that both the OldSubbuteo and Advanced Rules are not always strictly adhered to.

Plan to do the Advanced Rules ( as in my Subby Handbook ) and perhaps update the few that players have clearly swerved away from - like the stipulations for onside flicks, the keeper being neutral, and offside figures not being penalised unless they attempt to play the ball ( off the top of my head ) ... and so on.

Good luck with it Steve

Thanks, Ralph.

Out of interest Steve...why are you not using the Oldsubbuteo rules? They are basically the advanced rules, but with a few additions which weren't covered by the advanced rules...can't remember which one's though. It makes sense to keep playing to these rules, does it not? Just for continuity sake. Having to keep changing from Advanced to Oldsubbuteo to FISTF just makes it more complicated in my book.

With the Ely Tournement and Maidenhead many fellow Oldsubbuteo players come over from Italy. Trying to get British players playing to the same rules as our counterparts in Italy seemed only a natural extension. The Lionhearts are seen as an Oldsubbuteo Club by the Italians and we are part of their community. Even included in their book.

Not looking to stir...just interested as to why?

yes i always have a copy of the old subbuteo rules - a bit easier to understand too

Yes, I think it will pretty much read like the oldsubbuteo rules, but with a few considerations - but labelled as Subbuteo Advanced Rules 2012.
It will be labelled Subbuteo and not oldsubbuteo, as there doesn't seem to be a need for the oldsubbuteo name, and it may confuse newcomers. There already seems to be evidence of this.

The game is clearly ... Subbuteo, as opposed to the other version of the game, which has been defined 'Sport Table Football' with no mention of Subbuteo.
There appear to be STF type rules in the oldsubbuteo rules that have no reason for being there, and more importantly, don't make the game more like football.
For example, there never used to be limits put on the number of onside flicks allowed during possession. Why should there be? In football, we don't forbid more than two players from tracking back into legal positions?
With regard to the flicking technique, in detailing the legal method, do we really need to stress four more rulings on how not to flick? The first statement should be definitive. These are just examples of things I would like to strip back to 'Advanced Rules'. As Ralph has already stated, the rules were always being revisited.
Anyway, chaps. I'm no authority on all this. I'm just an enthusiast that wants to put a site together, that I wish existed when I returned to the game a couple of years back.
If I can deliver a concise and punchy set of rules, and simply highlight the STF differences, then perhaps folk will be more inclined to confidently shuttle between codes and support 'the game' in a broader sense.
Some STF players have already shown an interest in Subby, and if any transition can be made as seamless as possible, that has to be good news, surely.
Seems silly writing all this - I will see you Sunday :-D

Things are much more straight forward for you guys, as you're only interested in playing the game the old way, but there are players out there that just like flicking, and they don't much mind what kind of figure or base it is - but do respect the difference. What I'm doing is for them really. You lads probably won't even give it a second look :-D
Hope my reasoning makes sense?

Perfectly mate...

As for the onside flicks during possession...I think it was to stop players advancing huge amounts of players into offside positions then tactically moving them onside. Also...it also replicates real football by there being a more possible increase in being offside. Something you don't get much of in the other game.

Maybe it would be good to give a link to the rules, so that newbies don't think it's a completely different game.

I'm open to correction, if memory serves me right... the Italian lads couldn't get permission to call it 'Subbuteo'. That's why they named it Oldsubbuteo.

Shame...as it would have stopped a lot of initial confusion.

You're right, it would stop a lot of confusion.
Especially now, with the relaunch, being referred to as 'new subbuteo'.
Can't see how you can stop somebody from referring to the game by its name?
Merchandising stuff with the name on, yes. But surely not the mere mention of it. That would be detrimental to the game, as it would get no publicity!!!

Here what you say about players possibly using the onside flick tactically, but tbh, can only see that as a bad tactic, as you are allowing your opponent to better organise his defensive shape with every counter block, surely.
And not sure if it increases the chance of you being caught offside, Ian. Don't players just use the player in an offside position to play the ball while it is still in front of the penultimate defender?
Regardless of my opinion though, if the Subby community believe a limited number of onside flicks adds realism to the game, then it shall stay :-D
Looking forward to seeing you on Sunday, Ian.

Here is my tupenny worth

oldsubbuteo rules are largely fine except they could do with writing in better English..clearly they have been translated from Italian...

all I would do is...

restrict maximum throw in lenghs to the adjacent quarter only

allow the forcing of throws into the adjacent quarter rather than the current ball/both players in the same quarter rule

insist on recognised football formations at the beginning of each half and goal kicks...

and I would drop the use of the term oldsubbuteo as players in this country do not understand what it refers to ? .. I thought the whole movement in Italy was born out of a bitter disagreement over there with the FISTF lads - I stand to be corrected ? not that it really matters anyway I'd like to see anyone from PLG or Hasbro actually try to restrict the use of what is at the end of the day a latin word .. I think they might struggle in reality...